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The Newbies Arena Are you new to knife making? Here is all the help you will need. |
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#1
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im completely new to knife making
hello, im theo and im in the process of shaping the blade of my fist ever knife. i have never worked with meta before. the knife is full tang and made from a piece of old leaf spring i got from a blacksmith. i have quite a few questions so help with any of them would be most appreciated.
1. what finish should i have on the metal before i heat treat it? 2. is it really important to find out what metal it is before heat treating and tempering? if so, how does one go about doing it? (a forum said about 90% of leaf springs are 5160 steel) 3. some info says to heat it till it glows cherry red to heat treat it, others say specific temperatures. does it need to be that specific? 4. is it better to temper it with a flame and judge by the colour of the metal or by putting it in the oven for certain amount of time? 5. is there more than one way to heat treat and temper the blade and what gets the best results? 6. is it necessary/usual to use epoxy resin as well as pins to secure the handle? i would like to add that i have a good workshop with proper metal working equipment at my disposal and like something challenging so am willing to try maybe the harder techniques if they get better results. i would also like to thank anyone one who his taking the time to answer the questions from newbies like me and like i said any answers would be most appreciated. cheers x |
#2
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Welcome aboard, Theo! Now, go do your homework. That means you have a lot of reading to do. Start with the Search function at the top of this page and search the forums for answers to some of your questions. Apparently, you have done some reading but still have a long way to go. The questions you have asked would require a library to answer thoroughly but here are some quick answers:
1. Get the deep scratches out, make sure there are no sharp corners. 220 grit finish is sufficient 2. Yes. Hell yes. Abso-freakin-lutely yes! You can generalize it and do OK but you'll never get the high performance that we make our own knives to get if you don't know what you're working with 3. Yes, it needs to be that specific. Some steels can handle 'pretty close' as in non-magnetic but others need to be pretty darned close and they need to be held at that exact temperature for a specific length of time 4. Color is objective. Your orange might be my high yellow. Oven every time. It can be done with a torch but you asked what was better, oven is better. 5. Holding the correct temperature for the correct length of time gets the best results. To do that you need to know what steel you have. 6. Necessary? No. But in every other consideration, yes, the handle is better in every way when there is epoxy under the scales. It's not there to hold the scales on, it's there to keep moisture out and away from the tang . Lots of leaf springs from large trucks, especially older ones are 5160. Automobile leaf springs and light trucks are almost never 5160 these days. Whatever they are might still make a good knife but why bother? You can buy a length of excellent blade steel from any of the knife supply houses for just a few dollars and then you know exactly what you're dealing with. The steel will be flat, smooth, and completely annealed in most cases - exactly what you need. Save the mystery steel for later when you have the experience to deal with it .... |
#3
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Ok, so I can give you little incite that I have picked up, as I also am a noobie.
1. the finer the finish before HT makes for less work taking out those big ol nasty file marks after the steel is hardened. 2.I dont know that its REALLY important, but it dose help a lot. It gives you a documented starting point for your HT rather than a guess. 3. ... I'm not 100% sure. 4. I have been using a kitchen oven with a extra thermometer to double check my temps for tempering. It so far seems to do it fine. 5. I will say yes to this because I have gotten almost as many ways to HT as smiths I have asked. 6. The epoxy for me at least adds some strength the handle and acts as a seal to keep out moisture. If you have a good shop you are way ahead of were I am. I would suggest checking out the knife makers sub forum on BF. They have some stickies that have a lot off good info in them for new makers. I hope the little I know helps at least some, I'm sure anything that I have wrong will be corrected by more knowledgeable makers. ... and I have been corrected even before I got this post up. Last edited by Vaunripped; 03-10-2012 at 09:06 AM. |
#4
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thanks alot guys, most helpfull. i see your point about checking the other forums (should have done that first!) i will check, revise my questions, and then ask more! i will be sure to post some pictures in the newbies forum when im done, i will continue with my piece of leaf spring as it has taken a lot of filling, and im interested as to whether i can get it to take/keep any kind of edge. cheers! x
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#5
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I can well imagine that you have had to do a lot of filing on that leaf spring since, apparently, it is not in annealed form right now. 5160 is about the only steel that we might buy from a regular knife supplier that might not be annealed when we get it. Annealed steel is as soft as steel can get so it cuts, sands, grinds, and files easily. No spring you pick up off a vehicle or junk yard will be annealed and you didn't say that you annealed it so that means you have already started off doing things the hard way. That's OK, that's how we learn. Of course, you're also wearing out your files rapidly and you'll need more sandpaper or grinding belts when you get to the point where you're using them and you'll probably have to deal with some warp when the heat treat is done but hey, look at all the money you saved by not buying that $10 piece of annealed steel (that was sarcasm, BTW - you're not saving money using salvaged steel and it's taking you three times as long to make that blade) ...
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#6
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i didn't say that i had annealed it because i had already had it annealed by the blacksmith i got it from so i didn't need to ask any questions about it, you jumped to that conclusion a bit too quick i think! yes it has taken a lot of effort filling and sanding it, i did it this way because i wanted to put as much energy as possible, do as much by hand as possible and really get to grips with the processes (this may seem strange but im in no rush). in hindsight, yes i should have got a piece of metal that i know what it is as i definitely don't want it to warp or brake due to years of stress on the metal but i have made it purely to make me happy knowing i made it and the blade is an impractical shape so i don't think it will really see much use any way......... x
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#7
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I can't add much to Ray's responses to your questions, so I won't. What I will do is advise that you get some good reading material to help guide you through the learning process. The $50 Knife Shop by Wayne Goddard is good. Even though you are going to be doing stock removal, or so it seems, I would also like to recommend The Complete Bladesmith by Jim Hrisoulas. I has a good section on steel selection and heat treating and even part of the discussion on grinding will still be applicable even if you are not doing your shaping and establishing the bevels with a hammer. One of the best tools a knife maker can have is a good reference library.
Doug __________________ If you're not making mistakes then you're not trying hard enough |
#8
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Sorry Theo if I upset you but it irks me to see new guys do things that might turn them off knife making. Some guys struggling s you are would just give up but that's not you apparently and that's a good thing. And, maybe I did jump to the conclusion that the steel wasn't annealed too quickly. Then again, maybe not. If it was really fully annealed it shouldn't be all that difficult to work with. To a blacksmith it wouldn't make much different but to us it can be a deal breaker. Anyway, you hang in there and be sure to let us know what you think about the steel you are now working on once you do get some annealed steel for comparison ...
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#9
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I have worked annealed 5160 all by hand before (my first knife) and I agree even annealed its takes a lot of time and work to get it into shape.
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#10
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And there you have it!
Sometimes you just got to let them touch the stove. __________________ Carl Rechsteiner, Bladesmith Georgia Custom Knifemakers Guild, Charter Member Knifemakers Guild, voting member Registered Master Artist - GA Council for the Arts C Rex Custom Knives Blade Show Table 6-H |
#11
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don't worry, i wasn't at all upset. and yes i will keep at it until it is finished, or wrecked! if this one works i will be sure to look into faster ways of working and of course, better quality steels! thanks again to all that posted. x
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Tags |
art, blade, edge, files, forge, forging, full tang, grinding, hammer, handle, heat treat, knife, knife making, knives, material, pins, post, resin, scales, steel, supply, tang |
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